Exactly what I have been talking about with all you (GM and Ford) haters out there. Americans that hate Americans (or at least GM and Ford). If you really think GM and Ford are so inept, instead of bashing them and calling your fellow Americans lazy, go start your own f'ing company and do something about it. I mentioned Eric Buell in a previous post of mine on this site, this guy Hollinger is doing exactly what Eric Buell did. See where things could be done differently or better and instead of getting on forums and telling everyone how bad Ford is the rest of his life, he is doing something about it.



Instead, all the (GM and Ford) haters on this site would rather point to the Japanese and act like they are proud of the fact that Toyota is gaining on GM. What is wrong with the U.S. anymore. I realize some people on this site are not U.S. but a ton of the haters are American.



If I really thought for one second that nothing the domestics produced had any appeal at all and was all crap and I was an auto enthusiast as many claim, I'd be trying to fill the mega market potential of a great product "made in the U.S.A." since many U.S. consumers (the largest market in the world) claim that is something they would be interested in supporting. Personally I don't think that of the big 2 at all but I still think about how I could contribute instead of bending over for Toyota. Contributing doesn't have to be blindly buying American, contributing can be doing what this guy is doing or what Eric Buell did. Now Buell is a wholly owned subsidiary of Harley. Which means Buell contributed to Harley and the U.S. having a sport bike. Gee, it would been cool if Buell just spent his time bashing Harley instead, think all he could have accomplished then.



Especially those that write about cars and are haters. To know so much about cars (at least in their mind) and to sit there and write about them all the time instead of building awesome machines (to possibly compete with Toyota) and write hateful things about GM and Ford, it is so sad, walk the walk before you talk the talk.







All you haters, just keep hating and don't do anything constructive.

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So you hate the american haters? Where does it end?

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To answer your question: Probably at the U.S. becoming a third world country or one step away.



Look at all the growing (rocketing) economies of the modern world. They are manufacturing and not service which is what the U.S. seems to gladly slip into. From the U.S. to Japan to Korean and now China. The ones that are falling more into debt (gov't wise) or slipping (slow downs) are the ones which have or are letting the manufacturing jobs slip away. Of course I mean the U.S. and Japan. Japan let some of their manufacturing go to the U.S. (and other places) for cars and Toshiba, Sony and others are making their products in China. Any country growing their manufacturing is growing economically. Any country with great manufacturing which gives it away has debt or slow downs. It couldn't be anymore clear.



Service economies are easy to topple because service companies are much easier to surpass or take over. First Alta Vista was the thing, then yahoo and now Google. All in 10 years. Hyundai, one of the seemingly newer companies and is doing well was started in 1947 according to their website. Things aren't as easy to change in the manufacturing world. Quick changes only happen in the manufacturing world when companies do what everyone else does and they lose the competitive advantage. For one, moving operations into China. Sometimes the U.S. companies are smart enough to at least control/operate the factory but others leave it all to a Chinese company to do the manufacturing. This simply means there is no real advantage anymore. If this Chinese company commissioned by the U.S. (or other) company can do something without help/direction so can the next Chinese company commissioned to compete.



Google: "If Microsoft made cars". It is funny but true. The great service companies of America could never compete in manufacturing. Don't even mention XBox, one there are major problems with it overheating and two a major part of it's success is really because of the software (and exclusive contracts with sofware companies which make a particular game).



That is where the U.S. is headed, a bunch of service companies, easy to surpass.

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This is a great development. Hopefully, the manufacturer's will learn from this example, and build their standard engines to work with all these different fuels. Obviuosly it's possible to build one engine that works with all of them.



This could help to develop the infrastructure that's needed to introduce new technologies like hydrogen fuel, where one of the main obstacles is a comprehensive net of gas stations to provide the fuel supply.

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Hey Lithous,



So we know by now that you want to turn every story into us vs. them.



The story really had very little to do about Ford and GM, domestics vs. imports, other than the fact that Hollinger is an ex-Ford exec that is using Ford blocks.



It has a lot more to do about the ingenuity of a start up company that might be able to develop a product that will reduce our dependence on foreign oil.



You seem to be talking about patriotism, when obsessing about Ford and GM. When one is actually critical of Ford or GM, it would be logical to determine if their argument has merit. And if they are critical, it doesn't necessarily mean that they want Ford or GM to do poorly, or that they are unpatriotic. I suspect that the opposite is true more often than not.



Let me give you a correlary to better illustrate my point. If one speaks highly of an import car manufacturer, it does not necesarily mean they are unpatriotic. For instance, in a free country like America, if I pointed out that if the U.S. fleet M.P.G. just averaged what the Honda fleet M.P.G. does in this country, we would not have to import any oil and we would run a huge trade SURPLUS with the rest of the world.



Does that make me a domestic-basher or unpatriotic? Quite the contrary. If I had this information and did not share it, that could be construed to be unpatriotic, and Ford and GM would be further in the dark about their competition.



You know we used to produce some mighty fine steam engines in this country as well, Lithous. Sadly, those steam engine workers had to adapt when internal combustion gasoline engines changes the market. It must be especially maddening to you that a couple of Germans who invented it put all of those Americans out of work! Yea right!!

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used cars,



I definitely admit to turning many stories into a way to demonstrate to people how all the brainwashing about the American auto makers which has been done over the last 30 years comes down to a lot (of course not all) being over exaggerations and down right myths. I'm not saying the U.S. companies are perfect I'm just saying there are many reasons why things are as they are and it is a LOT less because every engineer, assembly line worker and executive at the domestics are inept and/or lazy as many like to think or say. I just don't believe it. In what other sport or industry would a company or person be called inept and totally out of touch and still hold the #1 spot? I don't care if it is fleet sales (and I've proven in other posts it isn't pure jingoism). It is not like the companies participating in fleet purchases think, "We really don't need any vehicles this year but I really like those guys at Ford". If one can make a case that fleet sales are the reason GM and Ford are ranked so high in sales then I will throw in there that Japanese domininance of the battery industry is why toyota and honda are where they are with hybrids. The same guys that don't want excuses FROM GM are the same ones that use fleet sales as an excuse for why GM is still #1.



It is only us vs. them in a sense that the only true wars needed to be fought are economic ones. I mean, we don't NEED to be in Iraq but we do need to keep our economy going. No different than I can have friends but it is crossing the line if they try to take my wife. I never tell anyone to go hating Toyota or other people who are not American. I am just saying don't let others take your prized possesions. If that is us vs. them then, OK, I'm guilty. If telling my close friend not to hit on my wife is us vs. them then, yes. I am all about the us vs. them.



The problem is that these "haters" as I will call them are much more vocal and when you read a lot of the comments on autoblog you see constant bashing of GM and Ford and rarily are there people willing to call their bluff(it must be a bluff to call the #1 automaker inept, maybe missing the mark here or there but come on, that is like Corky holding the record in the 100 yard dash and that isn't the case). So readers come along and see article after article and comment after comment calling GM and Ford inept and nothing to the contrary and next thing you know it becomes fact in peoples mind. That is one of the problems with magazines (as a media), you read an article and no comments are seen (unless they decide to print some of the letters to the editor). GM and Ford are easy targets, they are still around (unlike many other U.S. companies from the manufacturing good times) and they are slowly (compared to other U.S. industries which are gone) losing share. They are leaving a little slower than the rest of U.S. manufacturing and that makes them an easy target. When companies lose market share over night it is harder to see it coming. This has been a slow and painful falling and it is like watching it in slow motion. Makes it real easy to look good call the blow by blows.



Sometimes I feel like GM is being treated like the guys who went over to Nam. I mean, it is fine to point out what GM is doing wrong (write them a letter, send email to customer service) but people get in this frenzied, "want to let them have it" mode like all the people calling the soldiers "baby killers" or something. Like they are so proud that GM and Ford are failing. GM and Ford aren't little cry babies but maybe some really good engineers opt not to work for them because all the "inept" and "out of touch" statements being thrown around. It isn't very constuctive. Again, nothing wrong with giving your opinion but unless you are just a hater (and want them to fail at all costs) there really is no reason for the hateful comments some people throw out there about the big 2. Again, you should be able to call them "inept" if you really hate them but I will also exercise my ideas as well when I see what I consider outrageous which is what I have seen in buckets on this site. I'm sure you are sick of seeing some of my comments, they are hardly the 30 years of bashing I've witnessed toward GM and Ford.



Also, I don't think I ever said it is unpatriotic if you give your opinion. Sorry if I did. But I really think it more comes down to GM and Ford are in bad shape, IMO we need to keep them around, kicking a company when they are down is not the solution to "help" them get better. Help should be constructive not mean and hateful.



I ask you a question: How many articles on this site started out as info about a Japanese hybrid or other offering and it turned into "see, why can't the domestics do this. I'll tell you why, they are inept blah, blah, blah"? For every story I have "turned" I can show you 50 in the other direction. Why is it offensive when I do it?



Anyway, you won't have to worry much longer. Now that the holiday is about at a close I won't have nearly as much time to have so much fun on this site. I do have a job, which, looking at some people's time wasted on here that fact isn't so obvious.

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"Of course, why look at that obvious answer when zenophobic paranoia works just as well!"



Gee, I was being overly sarcastic in explaining how the Europeans are (being zenophobic, but) smart to create their own system even though on paper there really is no reason (other than zenophobic paranoia, which is valid because no relationship lasts forever). Sarcastically, I was trying to say I don't blame them, I wish we were a LITTLE less trusting of our allies (like Japan taking over our manufacturing of autos from GM and Ford eventually). My sacasim is simply to prove my point that being a little fearful of having others be in control of important things like GPS or manufacturing industry is, paranoia or not, actually smart for long term survival. Again, it is just smart of the Europeans even though on paper there would be no reason to (we are their ally and so why would we attack our ally type ideas when they are thinking past a month (or a minute like Americans do) and reasoning that allies might not last forever).



Also, they are smart for thinking to the future that in general. You say theirs WILL be better. It is not better now. Americans wouldn't buy a Chevy because it WILL be better than a XYZ import SOMEDAY. Again, sarcasim on my point. They are thinking of the future seeing a potential problem and doing something about it. Americans see that GM and Ford a losing share so what they do is jump in and help bash them. Thats's all. Two different ways of thinking.



Car-la, living here in America I have never heard of Ford. I have heard of Opel though. If European companies want to sell out to Americans (which Opel did in 1929 IIRC) is their business, doesn't mean it is good for the U.S. now or ever. I'm sure a lot of people would tell you that Opel would do better if it were German owned. I think American manufacturing will do better not to be all foreigned owned, that's all.



Again, about the one manufacturer thing, I was being sarcastic. I do understand why Europe would be interested in their own version. Only dumb Americans would think, "these nice Japanese people, I wish they made all of our cars". That's all.



BTW, maybe if the internal combustion wasn't invented we would have had a better engine now. I mean, looks like all the smart people of the the current times are trying to move to anything that isn't internal combustion (hydrogen and electric). Either way, I don't see how credit could go to the Germans, at least solely: http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aacarsgasa.htm.

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Oops. Above post is for the wrong article.

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